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 Schiedmayer Dominator

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N871



Masculin Nombre de messages : 239
Date d'inscription : 27/03/2012

MessageSujet: Re: Schiedmayer Dominator   Mer 20 Juin 2012 - 17:46

There were a few options available at Schiedmayer to even enlarge these harmoniums:

1. Addition of 8 undamaris 8' in the bass.
2. Range from A to F (5 1/2 octave celesta)
3. Prolongement for the "middle" and "high" register
4. Addition of player system => Scheola models, with or without celesta

more info on harmoniumnet.nl


Dernière édition par N871 le Jeu 30 Mai 2013 - 10:38, édité 1 fois
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Harmoniumnet



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MessageSujet: Re: Schiedmayer Dominator   Mer 20 Juin 2012 - 20:01

Nils871 a écrit:
There were a few options available at Schiedmayer to even enlarge these harmoniums:

1. Addition of 8 undamaris 8' in the bass.
2. Range from A to F (5 1/2 octave celesta)
3. Prolongement for the "middle" and "high" register
4. Addition of player system => Scheola models, with or without celesta

more info on harmoniumnet.nl

You forgot to mention the "Doppeltasten" option.
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N871



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MessageSujet: Re: Schiedmayer Dominator   Mer 20 Juin 2012 - 20:53

Citation :
You forgot to mention the "Doppeltasten" option.
Yes, but I don't see this feature as an expansion Smile in fact, I'm glad it isn't on my instrument.
If you have it and touch certain keys not deep enough by accident (fast passages), you won't hear all registes for those respective notes.
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Mathieu



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MessageSujet: Re: Schiedmayer Dominator   Mer 20 Juin 2012 - 20:56

So, it's like the "second touch" on the cinema organs (invented by Hope-Jones at the begining of the XXth century, I think I remember... One day people will realize how this guy was clever !) ?
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N871



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Date d'inscription : 27/03/2012

MessageSujet: Re: Schiedmayer Dominator   Mer 20 Juin 2012 - 21:42

Citation :
So, it's like the "second touch" on the cinema organs (invented by Hope-Jones at the begining of the XXth century, I think I remember... One day people will realize how this guy was clever !) ?
Yes, with de doppeltastendruck only the registers in front of the instrument (1, 2, 6) will sound if you press down a key just a bit.
I think some dominators were also built for cinemas. Cinema organs also have celesta like registers (xylophone for example).

I have another question Smile my Schiedmayer has solo percussion stops, this way you can use the percussion with the 4 oboe/basson,
instead of always the flute/cor anglais. On the otherhand the porcelain says 1P not just "P". The mustel models also have these 2 combined.
I'm thinking of changing the mechanism to make the button activate the two. I don't like to use the percussion without the 1, it sounds unnatural to me.
I expect it to be quite easy to change this mechanism?


Dernière édition par N871 le Jeu 30 Mai 2013 - 10:39, édité 1 fois
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Harmoniumnet



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MessageSujet: Re: Schiedmayer Dominator   Jeu 21 Juin 2012 - 10:22

Nils871 a écrit:
Citation :
So, it's like the "second touch" on the cinema organs (invented by Hope-Jones at the begining of the XXth century, I think I remember... One day people will realize how this guy was clever !) ?
Yes, with de doppeltastendruck only the registers in front of the instrument (1, 2, 6) will sound if you press down a key just a bit.
I think some dominators were also built for cinemas. Cinema organs also have celesta like registers (xylophone for example).

I have another question Smile my Schiedmayer has solo percussion stops, this way you can use the percussion with the 4 oboe/basson,
instead of always the flute/cor anglais. On the otherhand the porcelain says 1P not just "P". The mustel models also have these 2 combined.
I'm thinking of changing the mechanism to make the button activate the two. I don't like to use the percussion without the 1, it sounds unnatural to me.
I expect it to be quite easy to change this mechanism?


With this statement, you suggest that the percussion mechanism is also built in in both the (1) and (4) stop. To me it seems impossible to 'move' the percussion hammers from 1 to 4, because they are in the reed chamber.

A close look into the pictures of the inside of the reed chambers at the Dominator page, shows the 1P is indeed mounted in the front row (1).


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Harmoniumnet



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MessageSujet: Re: Schiedmayer Dominator   Jeu 21 Juin 2012 - 10:27

Nils871 a écrit:
I have another question Smile my Schiedmayer has solo percussion stops, this way you can use the percussion with the 4 oboe/basson,
instead of always the flute/cor anglais. On the otherhand the porcelain says 1P not just "P". The mustel models also have these 2 combined.
I'm thinking of changing the mechanism to make the button activate the two. I don't like to use the percussion without the 1, it sounds unnatural to me.
I expect it to be quite easy to change this mechanism?


The use of the 'solo percussion' seems relevant for composers who wrote passages for percussion only. Guilmant did it a few time. And if my memory serves me right, Alphonse Mustel did so in his volume II of "L'Harmonium" 1903.




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Mathieu



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MessageSujet: Re: Schiedmayer Dominator   Jeu 21 Juin 2012 - 10:29

I think Niels just meant that the 1P stop just draws the percussion mecanism, not the wind in the case of N°1.
So that the percussion noise would act an an "attack" noise for other stops.
But if it's written 1P on the stopface, I would assume it was originally drawing N°1 plus percussion, and perhaps the system has been modified... to be continued, once opened!

Pour les non-anglophones :
Je pense que ce que Niels a voulu dire, c'est que les tirants notés 1P ne font parler que la percussion et n'ouvrent pas la soupape d'admission du vent dans la case du N°1. Le bruit de la percussion étant alors employé pour simuler une attaque sur les autres jeux. Il me semble avoir déjà croisé un instrument comme ça (les Debain à percussion n'auraient-ils pas ce système ?).
Mais si les porcelaines indiquent 1P, alors il est possible qu'originellement ces tirants soient des 1P classiques et que le mécanisme d'ouverture des soupapes ait été neutralisé, vu que l'instrument a déjà subi quelques modifications... à voir une fois ouvert !
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Christoph



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MessageSujet: Re: Schiedmayer Dominator   Jeu 21 Juin 2012 - 10:59

In the Mustel instruments you have the choice between 1 and 1P, that means you can play the 1 with or without percussion. If you want to use percussion only (e.g. in the Lemmens "Fanfare", where it is used as an echo-effect) you just dont give any air with the food paddles. I have never heard of an instrument where you can use the percussion independently of the 1 with another rank. Is this really the case in your instrument, Nils?
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N871



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Date d'inscription : 27/03/2012

MessageSujet: Re: Schiedmayer Dominator   Jeu 21 Juin 2012 - 14:32

Citation :
In the Mustel instruments you have the choice between 1 and 1P, that means you can play the 1 with or without percussion. If you want to use percussion only (e.g. in the Lemmens "Fanfare", where it is used as an echo-effect) you just dont give any air with the food paddles. I have never heard of an instrument where you can use the percussion independently of the 1 with another rank. Is this really the case in your instrument, Nils?
There exist many instruments with a register for only the percussion, this is not the first instrument I own that has it. Most have it this way.
I live across a museum, so I can tell Smile It makes it possible to use for example only the oboe but with percussion. But...as I said in my previous message, it sounds a bit
unnatural to me, so I will change it. I don't think it's difficult. It's the same like choosing what registers should sound in the grand-jeu.
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N871



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MessageSujet: Re: Schiedmayer Dominator   Jeu 21 Juin 2012 - 14:35

I still have to open the instrument. I guess this will give me more information about this buttons mechanism.
Still a lot of treasure to discover inside Smile I will try to post new photos as soon as I can!
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N871



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MessageSujet: Re: Schiedmayer Dominator   Jeu 21 Juin 2012 - 15:07

Oh, seems like I missed some messages:

Citation :
With this statement, you suggest that the percussion mechanism is also built in in both the (1) and (4) stop. To me it seems impossible to 'move' the percussion hammers from 1 to 4, because they are in the reed chamber.
No, I meant the percussion of the 1 together with the 4, just like Mathieu told. The percussion hammers can only strike the nr 1.

Citation :
The use of the 'solo percussion' seems relevant for composers who wrote passages for percussion only. Guilmant did it a few time. And if my memory serves me right, Alphonse Mustel did so in his volume II of "L'Harmonium" 1903.
This is not true because all instruments with the percussion mechanism can play solo percussion, you just have to stop pumping with your feet. If you only
want solo percussion on one side you have to use the double expression* to send all air to the other side exclusively. So the only feature of the solo-percussion stop is have the percussion sound combined with every register without being obliged to have the 1 as well. *UNLESS... you don't have the double expression, in this case the solo-percussion stop can be useful!

Citation :
But if it's written 1P on the stopface, I would assume it was originally drawing N°1 plus percussion, and perhaps the system has been modified... to be continued, once opened!
Yes, you are right, to be continued Smile by the way Mathieu, how is it going with your Mustel orgue-celesta? Smile


Dernière édition par N871 le Jeu 30 Mai 2013 - 10:40, édité 1 fois
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DGW



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MessageSujet: Re: Schiedmayer Dominator   Jeu 21 Juin 2012 - 18:15

Mathieu a écrit:

...
Pour les non-anglophones :
...


Merci !!!
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Christoph



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MessageSujet: Re: Schiedmayer Dominator   Jeu 21 Juin 2012 - 19:04

In my opinion a double-expression that can "send all air exclusively to the other side" is not well regulated....

Across which harmonium museum do you live?

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Mathieu



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MessageSujet: Re: Schiedmayer Dominator   Jeu 21 Juin 2012 - 19:09

I was about to write it myself : double expression should regulate a minima but not close when on minimum...

Français :
J'allais l'écrire moi-même : la double expression doit réguler la pression au minimum mais pas fermer l'arrivée d'air...
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N871



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MessageSujet: Re: Schiedmayer Dominator   Jeu 21 Juin 2012 - 20:09

Citation :
In my opinion a double-expression that can "send all air exclusively to the other side" is not well regulated....
of course it should be able to send all air exclusively to one side Smile if it works well that is.., this way you can do whatever you want.
I can draw all 9 stops on the treble side and still here a single clairon whistling on the other side or use a solo percussion, wich isn't possible otherwise.
A double expression should be able to make a diminuendo al niente on one side while leaving the other side untouched, again this is not possible if you still
have wind when leaving the levers untouched. For less experienced players is might be ok if it works only half, this way there is more room for "human error" Smile
wich is in fact the same story when playing with the reservoir on (playing without expression)...
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Mathieu



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MessageSujet: Re: Schiedmayer Dominator   Jeu 21 Juin 2012 - 20:30

Well, perhaps the Schiedmayer system is different from the Mustel one, but all the Mustel I saw had a lower limit with the D.E., but not down to zero. And I checked in lphonse Mustel's book, it's described in the same way...

French :
Peut-être le système Schiedmayer est-il différent, mais tous les Mustel que j'ai pu essayer à ce jour présentaient une limite basse de la D.E. non-nulle. Et après consultation du livre d'Alphonse Mustel, lui aussi décrit une limite basse non-nulle.
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N871



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MessageSujet: Re: Schiedmayer Dominator   Jeu 21 Juin 2012 - 21:07

Citation :
Well, perhaps the Schiedmayer system is different from the Mustel one, but all the Mustel I saw had a lower limit with the D.E., but not down to zero. And I checked in lphonse Mustel's book, it's described in the same way...
Maybe the germans improved the system :p No, having a lower limit has an advantages because this way you can let your knees rest when the softest possible dynamic in wanted, ..assuming that this lower limit
is extremely soft wich is probably the case (I hope). But again, all is possible on instrument without the limit..I think every player will think different about this, it's very personal. So please don't think that it isn't
regulated well when there is no lower limit Smile I think there are a lot more reasons/arguments to put this the other way around.

********

Je vais faire des traductions demain pour les gens qui ne parle pas l'anglais Smile


Dernière édition par Nils871 le Jeu 21 Juin 2012 - 21:22, édité 1 fois
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N871



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MessageSujet: Re: Schiedmayer Dominator   Jeu 21 Juin 2012 - 21:17

Actually the germans did improve the (double) expression, or so they say Smile The instrument has 2 small extra bellows to feed the bellows with air when playing big chords. It's called the Fritsche system.
It's this system that determines the title "dominator". I'm not sure that it makes a big difference. Maybe it isn't even working on my instrument, I still haven't opened it. Anyway I have a lot of respect for Mustel,
he was of big influence for Schiedmayer, and it's thanks to him that we have this instrument today he used to call "harmonium d'artiste" Smile Please don't blame me for promoting Schiedmayer Smile haha, Mustel still "owns"
the harmonium-world Smile
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N871



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MessageSujet: Re: Schiedmayer Dominator   Ven 22 Juin 2012 - 10:14

The celesta part, I think it's a Schiedmayer, as I didn't find any Mustel-like signature nor serial numbers, but there are 2 numbers on the back of this celesta: 7109 1568
both numbers are carved into the instrument but do not appear on the same horizontal line, nor do the have the same size. The 7109 is printed bigger.







The most important pictures are still to come Smile but it's not very easy to open this instrument completely. First the celesta has to be removed, and I guess the "hearth" of this instrument will be very heavy to lift, which is needed to take pictures of the double expression. I will take new pictures soon.


Dernière édition par N871 le Jeu 16 Juin 2016 - 10:51, édité 1 fois
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Mathieu



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MessageSujet: Re: Schiedmayer Dominator   Ven 22 Juin 2012 - 10:28

The celesta details don't look like the Mustel ones I know (not so many, but a few ones, with rather consistent construction)...
Is there hinges to rock the celesta back ?
It looks like the Grand Jeu is pneumatically assisted, Am I right ?
About the system for improving chords playing, would it be something like concussion bellows on the pipe organs ?

Français :

Les détails du célesta ne ressemblent pas aux quelques Mustel que j'ai pu observer à ce jour (qui étaient relativement semblables).
Le célesta est-il monté sur charnières pour le basculer en arrière ?
Par ailleurs, il semble que le mécanisme de Grand-Jeu soit assisté pneumatiquement, non ?

Sinon, ce système pour facilité les gros accords a-t-il quelque chose à voir avec les anti-secousses qu'on trouve sur les orgues ?
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N871



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MessageSujet: Re: Schiedmayer Dominator   Ven 22 Juin 2012 - 10:39

Citation :
Is there hinges to rock the celesta back ?
I think there are Smile aren't they obligatory to make the celesta work?

Citation :
It looks like the Grand Jeu is pneumatically assisted, Am I right ?
What do you mean by this, and how can you see it? Smile Is it a good thing?

Citation :
About the system for improving chords playing, would it be something like concussion bellows on the pipe organs?
Yes, I think it is, the system is found near the knee levers. I have a pdf with the patent explained, but this document is owned by
harmoniumnet.nl, if Frans allowes it I could send you a copy, it's in german.

I know Smile not a single clear answer...I'm sorry, please help Smile
The celesta on you Mustel seems very nice, and in good condition, is it working already?

PS JE VAIS FAIRE DES TRADUCTIONS AUJOURD'HUI
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Mathieu



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MessageSujet: Re: Schiedmayer Dominator   Ven 22 Juin 2012 - 11:00

I don't think the rear hinges are necessary... In fact, I meant the ones allowing to do this :

The celesta is rocked back, lying on the back of the harmonium. This way, it's much easier to open the instrument than moving the whole celesta away.
The question about the Grand-Jeu is just because I saw somathing looking like a small bellow on the way of the mechanism... down in the middle of the pump. No idea if it's better or not, just intriguishing, moreover for someone like me that loves to understand technical devices.
The drawing of the concussion bellows system (or any clear picture) would be great!!

About the celesta of the Mustel N°2324, I sorted out some troubles last week, so that it's working very well by now. Just one or two noises I'll try to reduce later. But I know nothing about celesta, I just spent some times looking, hearing and trying to understand, and was fortunate enough to solve easily most parasitic noises.

Frenchais :
Je ne pense pas que les charnières arrière aient rien de nécessaire... Je voulais désigner par là celles qui permettent de basculer le bloc célesta en arrière, comme sur la photo ci-dessus. C'est très pratique pour ouvrir l'instrument : on n'a pas à se faire aider pour déplacer tout le célesta.
Quant au grand-jeu pneumatique, j'ai noté un petit soufflet sur le trajet de la mécanique, j'en ai déduit une aide pneumatique. Aucune idée si cela est mieux ou moins bien, il s'agit juste de curiosité technique.
Quant aux anti-secousses, un dessin, ou quelques photos bien cadrées, serait idéal pour comprendre comment ils agissent.

Quant au célesta du Mustel N°2324, j'ai réglé quelques souci la semaine dernière, de sorte qu'il fonctionne plutôt bien dorénavant. Il reste juste une ou deux notes qui on un son parasite, que j'arrangerai plus tard, quand j'aurai une meilleure compréhension de la chose. Je ne connais rien aux célesta, j'ai juste passé du temps à observer, écouter, faire des essais et j'ai été assez chanceux pour arriver à réduire la plupart des problèmes de sons parasites assez facilement.
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N871



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MessageSujet: Re: Schiedmayer Dominator   Ven 22 Juin 2012 - 11:25

ok, now I understand, yes those hinges are present on the instrument, I hadn't even seen them Smile I thought
you were talking about something of the celesta-mechanism..

So you think the extra pump is to make the grand-jeu registre easier to draw? I will investigate it soon, make some new videos etc. Smile
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N871



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MessageSujet: Re: Schiedmayer Dominator   Ven 22 Juin 2012 - 19:20

Hallo everyone, for the first time I opened up the instrument.
The harmonium is really heavy, and the double expression is working very well, so I didn't remove the main part it to see this mechanism.
So still no photos of the reeds either, I expect them to be in good condition


Dernière édition par N871 le Jeu 16 Juin 2016 - 10:56, édité 2 fois
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