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 1p on Mustel

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N871



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Date d'inscription : 27/03/2012

MessageSujet: 1p on Mustel   Mer 19 Déc 2012 - 17:11

Hello,

does anyone know how the 1p register works? I heard that it activates both percussion and rank 1 on all Mustels.
But how are they connected? In other words: Where is the 1p's mechanism connected to the first rank?
Is there a metal hook for the 1p that also puches the 1? This hook could be near the register stops or deeper inside the instrument.
All info is welcome!

best,

Nils

p.s.: is the presence of the 1 without percussion very interesting on Mustels? It is sometimes used in kunstharmonium-music, but I can imagine that when you
play soft with 1p the percussion isn't very audible. Please correct me on this one if I'm wrong.
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Mathieu



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MessageSujet: Re: 1p on Mustel   Mer 19 Déc 2012 - 17:29

Oui, sur les Mustel "1 P" signifie jeu N°1 et Percussion, pas de doute là dessus.
Je reposte ici la photo du système sur le N°2324-1207-500 (à gauche sur la photo) :



Yes, on Mustel harmonium, "1P" means Stop N°1 with percussion, no doubt !
Here I put again the picture of the system on the Mustel N°2324-1207-500.
You can notice the stop valve is opened by an "arm" pushing it down (in the left part of the picture). This arm is screwed in the axe that also activates the percussion.
Look closely to the pictures of the inside of your Dominator, there is the screw hole for this in the same place ! So I do not agree when you said the percussion alone activated by 1P is an original feature on it. I even think there is still traces of the place the mechanism is pushing the N°1 stop valve down...

It is not much to have it remade, I think. Someone as Louis Huivenaar should even have original parts that can be used there or used as models.

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N871



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MessageSujet: Re: 1p on Mustel   Mer 19 Déc 2012 - 17:37

..ok thanks a lot for this info, I will have to read it one more time to fully understand Smile here's a new picture of my dominator.
Are you still convinced that it was present on my instrument?

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N871



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MessageSujet: Re: 1p on Mustel   Mer 19 Déc 2012 - 17:44

ok..finally I understand Smile thank you so much Mathieu! Maybe it was original but they chose to use older parts which had already holes for the connection..
In anyway I prefere them to be connected. It's nice to receive an answer on the forum so quick Smile all the best, Nils
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Mathieu



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MessageSujet: Re: 1p on Mustel   Mer 19 Déc 2012 - 17:49

Regarde dans la case du N°1 en haut à gauche sur ta photo.
Tu peux voir sur l'axe du mécanisme de percussion le trou de vis et le palier (?) ménagé dans l'axe pour y fixer le "bras de levier". Ensuite, sur la soupape de jeu, on voit la pièce de bois qui servait à arrimer le mécanisme pour la pousser vers le bas. Compare avec les photos du Mustel, et tout s'éclairera !



Look at the right top stop case.
First, on the percussion axe, you can see the place with the screw hole to put the "arm" on.
Then on the stop valve, you car see the wood piece where the action pushes down. Compare with the picture of the Mustel.
You will understand easily.
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N871



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MessageSujet: Re: 1p on Mustel   Mer 19 Déc 2012 - 17:53

Smile yes I did notice this, read my previous message Smile you were probably already making your reply while I posted it. But your picture makes it also
very easy to understand for the other forum members. thanks again!
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Harmoniumnet



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MessageSujet: Re: 1p on Mustel   Ven 21 Déc 2012 - 14:17

Nils Van der Plancken a écrit:
Hello,

does anyone know how the 1p register works?


In my opinion it is not so difficult at all.

(1) Cor Anglais & (1) Flûte will play the sound of the reeds only.

(1p) adds the Percussion mechanism

This means you can use each of them SEPERATELY.

In allmost Schiedmayers it works exactly the same.

And when playing big (bombastic) chords, there is almost no justification to draw the percussion. It does not add to the sound.

Mind you that in 2mp Mustels most of the time both pedal ranks have PERMANENT percussion on. Due to the large reeds in the reed pan.


Frans



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Jean-François Baudon



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MessageSujet: Re: 1p on Mustel   Sam 22 Déc 2012 - 15:30

Bonjour,

Cela me paraît exact : j'ai possédé il y a pas mal d'années un Mustel N° 7 (je crois me souvenir qu'il datait de 1904), dont le mécanisme de percussion avait été malheureusement enlevé : il n'y avait pas de commande spécifique pour la percussion à la pédale, qui devait donc fonctionner en permanence ; cependant, l'unique rang de 16 pieds du pédalier était appelé par 2 cuillères, une "forte" et l'autre "piano" (atténuée).

Sur mon Debain n° 19759/26804, le registre 1p n'appelle que la percussion : il faut donc appeler aussi le 1 pour obtenir le cor anglais-flûte avec percussion ; cela permet également de bénéficier de la percussion sur le 1-sourdine.

Jean-François

Traduction automatique (revue et améliorée, enfin j'espère) :

Hello,

That appears exact to me: I had in the past a Mustel N° 7 (I believe to remember that it was built in 1904), whose mechanism of percussion had been unfortunately removed : there was no command specific for the percussion at the pedal, which was also in function permanently; however, the single row of 16 feet of the pedals was called by 2 spoons, one “forte” and the other “piano” (attenuated).
On my Debain n° 19759/26804, the register 1p calls only the percussion: the 1 thus should be also drawn to obtain the horn English-flute with percussion; that also makes possible to profit from the percussion on the 1-sourdine device.

Jean-François
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N871



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MessageSujet: Re: 1p on Mustel   Sam 22 Déc 2012 - 15:43

Citation :
In my opinion it is not so difficult at all.

(1) Cor Anglais & (1) Flûte will play the sound of the reeds only.

(1p) adds the Percussion mechanism

This means you can use each of them SEPERATELY.


I don't think any harmonium should have the function to have the percussion selected without a rank being selected with it.
if you want a solo percussion sound, just stop moving your feet. if you want a solo percussion sound on one side only, use
the double expression levers.

combinations of the 4 with the hammer sound of the percussion does not work well in my opinion because the sound doesn't blend at all.
It seems like many Schiedmayer have percussion stops that don't activate the first rank automatically. This is different with Mustel.
I prefere Mustel's system by far. Schiedmayer did both. Their percussion stops are called "1p" so you would think it includes the first rank automatically,
but they stopped making the connection to this first rank around 1915 I think. The catalogues mention SOLO-percussion stops.

My question was pure technically where the connection is made. Thanks to Mathieu (see his picture) I now know that it is activated with the percussion axis below
the reed house (on the plate above the double expression).


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Harmoniumnet



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MessageSujet: Re: 1p on Mustel   Sam 22 Déc 2012 - 21:35

[quote="Nils Van der Plancken
combinations of the 4 with the hammer sound of the percussion does not work well in my opinion because the sound doesn't blend at all.
It seems like many Schiedmayer have percussion stops that don't activate the first rank automatically. This is different with Mustel.
I prefere Mustel's system by far. Schiedmayer did both. Their percussion stops are called "1p" so you would think it includes the first rank automatically,
but they stopped making the connection to this first rank around 1915 I think. The catalogues mention SOLO-percussion stops.

My question was pure technically where the connection is made. Thanks to Mathieu (see his picture) I now know that it is activated with the percussion axis below
the reed house (on the plate above the double expression).
[/quote]


I have checked thourougly all catalogs of Schiedmayer. They never used the Percussion on 4.
The percussion is ALWAYS on 1.Cor Anlgais and/or 1. Flûte

Also, almost all catalogs show a seperate 1p

SOLO PERCUSSION is only a new name for 1p. In music literature ( Guilmant, Saint Saens) we find phrases played on 1p ONLY > SOLO PERCUSSION


Frans

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N871



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MessageSujet: Re: 1p on Mustel   Sam 22 Déc 2012 - 21:42

..of course the percussion only works on the first rank..


the point is that when you have the solo-percussion stop, you can choose the 4 in combination with the hammer sound (hammers striking rank 1).
this is the ONLY advantage of having a solo percussion stop. And for me it doesn't work because the sound doesn't blend.

That's why I would like to have 1p stops on my instrument, like on all Mustels. These ones activate the percussion AND rank 1.

it's very simple Smile

solo-percussion = activate hammers only (although often called 1p by mistake): they don't give sound when pedalling with the feet.
1p = percussion AND harmoniumsound of rank 1


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Harmoniumnet



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MessageSujet: Re: 1p on Mustel   Dim 23 Déc 2012 - 15:39

Still there is a misunderstanding here.

Argument: Percusion (without 1 Cor Anglais / Flûte) and playing on 3 Clairon/Fifre: Sounds bad, does not blend with the rest of the sound.

Followed by the statement Mustel did a better construction. (1p = Perc. ou Cor/Flûte).

Suppose we play a passage on stop nr. 3 alone.
Both Mustel and Schiedmayer then must switched off the Perc.

If you want stop 1 (Cor/Flûte) with the Perc. you need to pull 1 stops in the bass, 1 in the treble in a Mustel.
In a Schiedmayer you need to draw 4 stops.

Once playing on 1+1p and you want the Perc. 1p to be deleted you have to delete 2 stops (bass / treble) in a Mustel.
In a Schiedmayer you do exactly the same.

My conclusion:

If there is no problem, one can always find a way to have a problem.


Pourtant, il ya un malentendu ici.

Argument : Percusion (sans 1 Cor Anglais / Flûte) et jouer sur 3 Clairon/Fifre : sonne mal, ne pas mélanger avec le reste du son.

Suivi de la déclaration a une meilleure construction. (1 p = ou Perc. Cor/Flûte).

Supposons que nous jouons un passage sur arrêt nr. 3 seul.
Mustel et Schiedmayer puis doit éteint le Perc.

Si vous voulez arrêter 1 (Cor/Flûte) avec le Perc. vous devez tirer 1 s'arrête à la basse, 1 dans les aigus dans un Mustel.
Dans un Schiedmayer, vous devez dessiner 4 arrêts.

Une fois jouer sur 1P 1+ 1Perc. et vous voulez le Perc. 1 p est supprimé vous devez supprimer 2 arrêts (bass / treble) dans un Mustel.
Dans un Schiedmayer vous faites exactement la même chose.

Ma conclusion : si il n'y a pas de problème, on peut toujours trouver un moyen d'avoir un problème.
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MessageSujet: Re: 1p on Mustel   Dim 23 Déc 2012 - 18:27

It's very clear you don't play the repertoire.
Ever tried Karg-Elert's totentanz? Smile

If you have to pull 4 stops each time instead of 2 it makes a difference, especially when these 4 stops are combined with other stops which is often the case
don't forget the distance to the stops is also bigger on an harmonium-celesta.
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Harmoniumnet



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MessageSujet: Re: 1p on Mustel   Jeu 21 Mar 2013 - 21:15

Nils Van der Plancken a écrit:
..of course the percussion only works on the first rank..

solo-percussion = activate hammers only (although often called 1p by mistake): they don't give sound when pedalling with the feet.
1p = percussion AND harmoniumsound of rank 1



Be aware that "Solo Percussion" is a name created by Sigfrid Karg-Elert, explained in his "Die Kunst des Registrierens".

An explanation is printed in the Verdin book, it is the last few pages.


Frans
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N871



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MessageSujet: Re: 1p on Mustel   Lun 25 Mar 2013 - 12:03

Yes I know,

"Solo percussion" (SKE) means using 1p but playing without air, resulting in only the percussion sound. If you play with air the first rank will sound.
"Solo percussion stops" are seldom found on kunstharmoniums. They contain only the hammer sound, if you play with air still no reeds will sound.


benefit of normal 1p stops: you have to pull only 1 stopknob to have both percussion and 1
benefit of solo percussion stops: you can use the percussion sound with rank 4 instead of 1, although it doesn't blend as well.
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MessageSujet: Re: 1p on Mustel   Lun 25 Mar 2013 - 12:24

Nils Van der Plancken a écrit:
Yes I know,

"Solo percussion" (SKE) means using 1p but playing without air, resulting in only the percussion sound. If you play with air the first rank will sound.
"Solo percussion stops" are seldom found on kunstharmoniums. They contain only the hammer sound, if you play with air still no reeds will sound.


benefit of normal 1p stops: you have to pull only 1 stopknob to have both percussion and 1
benefit of solo percussion stops: you can use the percussion sound with rank 4 instead of 1, although it doesn't blend as well.


Do you have "Harmonium Handboek" by Prof. Dr. Joris Verdin? Take a look at pages 191-192. It is clear from the tekst that SKE 'Solo Percussion' is in fact NOT without wind at al. See Kunst des Registrierens, p. 31

The Verdin book is still available.
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MessageSujet: Re: 1p on Mustel   Lun 25 Mar 2013 - 12:35

Of course I have this book, I read it 3 times. Karg-Elert often asks a little bit of air, just to give the percussion sound a little bit more resonance.
Don't forget that the percussion is not always completely reliable.

But theoratically spoken "solo percussion" means playing without air. The whole topic became confusing since some harmonium have knobs that
only trigger the percussion hammers but no rank of reeds.
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